But what makes it different

Noooot gonna comment on this.

the intention is noble, but I fear it'll wind up being misguided.

I'm going to save myself some time and copy+paste a post from my friend's blog.

>Okay I’ve been wanting to make this post for a while but I was afraid of the backlash - but at this point, fuck that. I need to say something.

>The Arkh Project is not going to go anywhere and I feel really fucking bad for anyone who has donated money because they’re not going to see any results. It’s a really noble cause - games today lack queer characters and persons of color and the project was striving to create a game that would fill that void.

>From a very cursory glance it’s pretty clear the people heading it don’t know what they’re doing. They do not even have a design document yet, and they are already asking for money. This is incredibly suspect to me. There is no design document, no art document, no technical document. These are basic parts of making a game that are pretty much mandatory to have before you even think about funding. If you don’t have these basic detailed documents saying exactly what you’re doing, you should not be asking for donations. The only thing The Arkh Project has to show is concept art. That is it. Everything else is talk and blog posts from the people working on the project. This is not nearly enough to justify even considering asking for money, even for donations.

>It is pretty clear from going over their blog, even in their gameplay tag, that they have put little to no thought into gameplay. The only things I could find were about the experience points system, combining herbs, and a lot about the characters and the plot. But nothing else. What is the combat in Arkh going to be like? I couldn’t tell you, because even though fighting monsters seems to be a large part of the game, the only thing I saw was:

>"The goal is an action RPG, meaning that you have to be good at hitting buttons at the right times to kill monsters."

>Ah. Yes. Very descriptive.

>Look - the intentions of this project are wonderful. Queer persons and people of color are lacking in the game industry. But I can’t support or give money or even advise other people to give money to something like this. They are taking advantage of people, if they realize it or not, plain and simple.

>The other major grievance I have with this project is the individual, Riley, who seems to be heading it. This is the person who runs “dumbthingswhitepplsay” and I can’t possibly support this if they’re involved, and you shouldn’t either. This is someone who makes posts to the tune of “shut the fuck up, white women”, who calls persons of color who disagree with them “white-identifying”, has literally told LGBTQ youth to kill themselves because they were white, and ridiculed a girl with a physical deformity and told her to kill herself.

>Do you want to support someone who makes comments like that? Who is completely fucking two-faced and trying to make a game that’s positive for people of color while simultaneously posting incredibly racist things to their blog?

>If I seem angry it’s because I am. Arkh has raised over $5,000 so far. This project is going to crash and burn because nobody they are working with has the skill to pull this off - their scope is too big and they don’t know anything about the game development process. And I’m willing to bet the people who donated are not going to see a single penny back when this project inevitably goes under.

>Support indie game designers, by all means, but support them when they know what they’re doing, and when they’re actually good people who practice what they preach.

DO NOT SUPPORT THIS

They have NO actual plans and direction.
And the main person behind it is an all around heinous person.

Also that particular donation site allows the people to keep the money even if they dont reach their goal.

A much better worded argument can be found here.
http://ardeb.tumblr.com/post/16890249680/

Whoa, all that money from some fancy words and pictures? Hmmm.

>>146194
>>146195
It's funny, /v/ had a big thread about this earlier which was nothing but "Fuck this shit because it's about niggers and queers" with not a single good argument in it.

/cog/ > /v/ THANK. YOU.

So it has to be a gay white guy and an ambivalent dark skinned girl? I don’t see what could come of this even if they did have the means to pull it off. Especially if from the ground up the first thought put into a character is BE GAY OR ETHNICALLY DIFFERENT.

>>146204
That REALLY shouldn't be the only reason to make a game, or any story for that matter, unless it's specifically about those issues, which I highly doubt a fantasy RPG would seriously deal with.
It just seems like a tagline to guilt well-meaning people to give all their money to some assholes running a scam.

Really if you wanted to do a game like this it's simple.

Make a good game and have your main character be gay or a minority... there.

You don't need any more thought in it than that. You can bring up his sexuality when it's pertinent, you extrapolate that yes he is _____________ nationality when it's necessary. But selling yourself as "THE FIRST GAY PROTAGONIST" or "THE FIRST BLACK PROTAGONIST" is selling yourself short and it seems more like you're riding on the gimmick of being a different sexual orientation/race rather than actually being thoughtful or profound.

As long as you approach it maturely and with the right idea of what kind of societal pressures one might encounter in the setting (if it's based on a real-world setting. Fantasy has shit go all-out) then you can write it out with all that in mind.

the zybourne arkh

A casually gay character in an infinitely better indie game.

Oh, look. A non-white protagonist in a mainstream video game series!

>>146231
UNPOSSIBLE!

> that whole post about “shut up white women” shouldn’t even be in there as a problem, considering what they were talking about. Cuz I mean, if you think them saying shit about white people’s privilege is racist then we’re done.
Barriers to reality and sanity all over the place. Tumblr, don't bite the hand of the person trying to protect you.

>>146204
>So it has to be a gay white guy and an ambivalent dark skinned girl?

Worked for Resident Evil 5.

Another good write-up of the whole thing.
http://hradzka.dreamwidth.org/427926.html
From the article:
>Kickstarter doesn't let you keep the money if you fall short of your goal. IndieGoGo does. This is explicitly why the Arkh project chose IndieGoGo.

Wow. I can't wait for the inevitable Fandom Wank post, which will probably be equal parts entertaining and disgusting.

>>146231
>>146232
Hey now guys, let's not go acting like they don't have a point. A handful of examples doesn't mean that video games aren't dominated by same old same old.

And it seems that they are trying to address the central issue: http://thearkhproject.tumblr.com/post/16772053171/but-will-arkh-be-a-good-game This is certainly better than "it's an RPG with minorities," but the way they're going about this still doesn't inspire much confidence. Saying they want good gameplay and creating good gameplay are two different things, as the entire industry is repeatedly and painfully showing us.

I can't help but see this as a prime example of how indie projects shouldn't be done. What we have here is somebody/some people with a vague concept begging for money so they can supposedly commission other people to do their work for them, with no indication that they are trustworthy or even have the skill sets to manage such a thing. Not a good sign of longevity.

On another note: Aren't sexuality and ethnicity considered minor character traits unless they're actively addressed? It's wishful thinking, but I'd like to imagine the lack of gay/non-Caucasian characters in video games could be attributed to a desire not to agitate those audiences with poorly conceived stereotypes that exist only to fill in a niche. Nothing's wrong with diversity, it's just one of those things that need to handled with care.

Sexuality and ethnicity aren't important as characteristics, they're important for how they manifest in the gameworld itself.

It's hard to deny how WASP and male roles dominate video games. Cutting this at a different angle isn't about making your main character a darker skin color or having them say "I'm gay" at some point of the game. It's a matter of reevaluating the entire player experience and social dynamics of the game they play in.

>>146237

It's true that they're under-represented. It's certainly not true that they're entirely without representation, as the Arkh Project keeps imputing.

Anyway, they have no design document, no plan, no experience with successful projects, no timeline, no nothing. Just some vague ideas and a dollar figure. At best they're dreamers with good intentions but no idea what they're doing, and any money sent to them is just wasted. At worst they're deliberately scamming people with good intentions out of their money.

>I can't help but see this as a prime example of how indie projects shouldn't be done.
Err, I don't see the logic in this, ever. A few bad cases mean the whole lot is bad? Fuck that mindset.

>>146251

I don't think he was saying ALL indie games are bad. He was saying that this is how you do not go about doing an indie game.

>>146252
Oh, sorry, my mistake.

I can definitely understand the feelings behind this - it fucking sucks to have your favorite media treat like an afterthought at best and horrifically offensive misrepresentation at worst if you're even acknowledged at all - but the way it's being handled is shady as fuck. I can only hope it's a result of zero planning and startling incompetence rather than actual malice.

They haven't even finished a game yet. Not one. And yet they expect a-hundred-fucking-thousand dollars for a game they don't even have the specifics for? A-nope nope nope.

>>146203
>/cog/ > /v/ THANK. YOU.
Pssh, like that's hard to accomplish.

>>146267
We meet the minimum standards of human decency! Woooh better than /v/!

If their idea was to make a sprite or flash type game then I could see this maybe having a chance but as a "3D RPG" I don't see this going anywhere.

>Making a game
>your main selling point is that you are going to make the cast diverse

Nice sentiment and all, but I'm not going to play a game just because of this. And it makes me feel like this game is going to force the fact that the cast is diverse down my throat. Whether or not that's true I don't know, but that's just what it feels like.

>>146271
They should have at least have made a proof of concept before begging for the full cost of the project.

>>146274

The indiegogo description is pretty terrible. There's lots about the driving force behind making it but nothing about the actual game. Is it turn-based? Real-time? Linear? Open world? What should we be expecting here stylistically? What should we be expecting here play-wise? No mention.

Making sure you have entertaining gameplay mechanics should be the #1 priority of any video game you want people to actually play. Look at Mount & Blade, an example of an small, independent video game project done right - it succeeded because the gameplay was fun, and because the gameplay was fun players didn't care about the mediocre graphics. If they're going to make a videogame, they should present us with the outline of the videogame, not just the social justice intentions.

>>146235
Suuuuure it did.

If it's legit, chances are it'll be dissapointing or won't even be made.
If not, sucks to be fooled by a bunch of artwork and big words. There aren't even and screenshots, despite, as of my post, coming out in 25 days.
I smell a scam or failure with no money back.

>>146267
My toilet is better than /v/.
At least my toilet talks about video games.

>>146301
I want to poop in your toilet.

So, where is this fabled concept art at the very least? All I've seen so far are Zuko & Katara of Avatar just chilling up there in OP's post.

>>146303
http://thearkhproject.tumblr.com/

That's pretty much all there is.

>>146304
Ohhhhhh Zuko is a chick! And Asian!

Wow, that is really not clear from the art in the OP.

>>146306
That's not a chick bro.

>>146307
Is Haruka an applicable guy's name?

And I'm pretty sure she is a girl. That or he has a sinfully gorgeous trap-bod.

5 grand? Man, why didn't I think of this? Some bullshit story and a couple of pictures.

>>146310

>>146310
Why would anyone think that would be enough money to kick start a project?

>>146314
It isn't, that money is supposedly going towards character concepts and what not first. Apparently they didn't expect to get that much dough so fast.

So let me get some clarification on this.

So far this arkh project only has a couple pieces of character concept art and a vague idea of a game they'd like to make. Is that accurate?

And do the people on the team currently have any experience in software development and game design? Because if not then this project is already doomed to fail from a business standpoint. 1 out of every 4 software projects are cancelled. Over half of them overshoot their budget and schedule, usually by a fairly large margin. The chances that a small group of people with no real experience in this field will be able to complete a project of this size with all of the features they've promised is something that I honestly don't see working out. I mean the money they've raised thus far is only going to CONCEPT ART. I'm guessing they haven't even touched the mountain of technical and requirements documentation that you need to work through before actual coding starts. If this project is going to actually yield results it will take YEARS. (Even today game titles crafted by fairly large experienced teams take over a year to complete often more) And I highly doubt they'll be able to keep the income flowing for development costs solely on donations for that long.

To me this seems like it's a group "I want to be idea guy for video games!" people. And I can't stand those people.

>>146304
>is looking for another PoC writer.

>We need one more PoC writer to even out the team!

>Writers need to be:

> * Of legal age
>* Able to spend some hours a few days a week working on it
>* Ideally, you have some basic experience in game development/game writing
> * PoC! Queer PoC are a bonus!


>Hiring based on race/gender/sexuality

>>146331
Well one of their main goals outside of making a diverse game is giving jobs to people that are underrepresented in the gaming industry. Granted the gaming industry is more diverse race wise than he is making it out to be.

>>146332
That doesn't stop it from being textbook employment discrimination.

>>146333
I didn't say it wasn't. It is. And this is what they have to say about it

http://thearkhproject.tumblr.com/post/16436834586/cis-straight-white-people-are-trying-to-shut-arkh-down

>>146333
I guess those poor white people being discriminated against are just going to have to dry their tears with all the extra cash they don't deserve and yet still make off of the wage gap because of the color of their skin?

Seriously, acting offended over reverse discrimination is the stupidest shit.

>>146331
>>146333
It is not a problem in this case because it is not systemic.
The majority already has enough opportunities.
Complain again when equality is actually achieved.

>>146335
>extra cash they don't deserve

Wrong direction. It's not that the majority gets something extra, it's that others get screwed out of what they deserve.

>>146335
Reverse discrimination is still discrimination, there's nothing "reverse" about it

>>146334
What the fuck is cis? Do I even want to know?

>>146340
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

>>146339
What it comes down to is white people bitching and moaning whenever they get the slightest taste of what it's like for everyone else every day every year all the time.

>>146341
Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, fuck this shit. I can see what people were talking about earlier with Riley being a terrible person. Not much reason to get mad except for the people who donated foolishly since the project still won't be going anywhere, but that guy's clearly got some priorities (and it feels like some facts) mixed up.

So are there any GOOD indie game projects on kickstart?

Let him discriminate on who he hires.

I wouldn't want to work for a jerk like him anyways.

This thread makes me want to publish a one-man game out of sheer spite.

>>146346
It can be done. But depending on the size of the project as well as what kind of tools you are using and what skills you have, it would take a LONG time.

The issue with this project is that they seem to want to do a lot with very little actual planning and very little actual funding.

>>146347
>But depending on the size of the project as well as what kind of tools you are using and what skills you have, it would take a LONG time.

Not necessarily. For example I can use Multimedia Fusion 2 and create my own graphics and music to create a small demo in 48 hours. Anyone with a casual knowledge of Ludum Dare would know this kind of setup is fairly common. I can make a slightly bigger demo in weeks, with some more polish/style to impress casual people with money to burn. Then I'll put up a smaller campaign on Indie Go Go or 8-Bit Funding, with a pitch and description to sell people on the game as well as the work-of-concept. Whatever the funding I receive upfront, I can then produce and publish the game for free online.

Within a matter of months I'll have done what a group of social justice bloggers couldn't team up to achieve, without having to rely on affirmative action or white guilt to do it. The only thing I'll need is the constant drive to succeed, achieved by exposing myself to further developments on this infuriating project.

>>146347
>The issue with this project is that they seem to want to do a lot with very little actual planning and very little actual funding.

Speaking of which, does anyone know how BroQuest is coming along?

>>146334
The "Don't let THE MAN bring you down" attitude is what's most suspect about this project. It feels so...demagogic.

>>146344
Not that I know of, but that brings me to a question: Fighting is Magic, an impressive indie game whose development has been going along swimmingly, accepts no donations whatsoever. Can this success be attributed to 1) The use of an existing fighting game engine 2) The existance of already-made canon art 3) The obssessiveness of bronies ?
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Ffeature%3Dplayer_embedded%26v%3D2uYnBcwd4Os&feature=player_embedded&v=2uYnBcwd4Os&gl=US

>>146351
I'd say the use of an existing trademarked franchise, not an existing fighting engine. Companies get touchy about that.

Racism still exists. Don't blame the people whose blogs were linked ITT for being upset about that fact.

>>146342
>>146335
>all white people are rich
>all white people have committed racist actions and deserve "the slightest taste of what it's like for everyone else every day every year all the time."

You funny.

>>146354
The posts you quoted didn't say "all white people". You inserted that quantifier.

You may want to read up on these concepts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_quantification
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_quantification

>>146355
>The posts you quoted didn't say "all white people". You inserted that quantifier.

The posts quoted used the phrase "white people" with no attempt at distinction. If we're supposed to take the hidden meaning of that as "all white people except the ones who aren't according to my tenuous life experience disguised as incontrovertible proof" then he should have said as much instead of using a sweeping generalisation.

>Racism still exists. Don't blame the people whose blogs were linked ITT for being upset about that fact.

Cash grabs are not the way to fight racism in videogames. Accusing people who disagree with your nebulous pitch as 'privileged white straight males' part of a conspiracy to shut down your project is not the way to fight racism in videogames. In fact that kind of e-drama behavior is the perfect way to make it harder to fight racism in videogames in future - your behavior will be the milestone, if not the stereotype, that people will use to measure and denounce future efforts.

What a ruse, this whole thing is terribly political.

>>146356
The meaning wasn't "hidden". The posts were referring to a subset of white people (those who complain about supposed systemic discrimination against them).

The usual >implying shit leads nowhere. Stop it.

Why WOULDN'T people with the attitude described in >>146203 use the __valid criticism (of which there are examples in this thread)__ of the game as a mask for their hatred?

Why should stereotyping perpetrated by the majority be the fault of the TARGET? Especially if the majority is whining about the WORDING and not the CONTENT?

Don't defend idiots.

>>146359
That's a bit hypocritical, considering the idiots are the ones in charge of the project, using employee discrimination to fight against employee discrimination (and not knowing in any way what they're doing with the game in general.) How the hell can you advocate yourself as a major pusher for minority rights and not know shit like that?

You're somehow arguing that it's okay to label any and all dissenters of the game as racist cis's, because it might be true for some of them. That it's okay to be discriminatory and ignorant, because it theoretically fights discrimination and ignorance. How do you not get why this might be stupid or unhelpful in a project based mainly on equality and you know what fuck this

>>146303
CANNOT UNSEE, you bastard.

Also suddenly getting Avatar: The Dawning of Darkness vibes.

>>146359
>The meaning wasn't "hidden". The posts were referring to a subset of white people (those who complain about supposed systemic discrimination against them).

No implication along those lines was made.

>The usual >implying shit leads nowhere. Stop it.

Ironic.

>Why should stereotyping perpetrated by the majority be the fault of the TARGET?

Why should we give money to a vitriolic 'ideas guy' who has no prior experience in indie games or current plan of action, yet is deluded enough to believe their first project will be a triple-A commercial release, and generalises anyone who raises reasonable doubts about their operations as 'cis white straight people no for serious anyone who disagrees with me MUST be straight and white no exceptions' out to put down the poor innocent non-white people who just want to put out a videogame that doesn't conform to THE MAN? Why should we give into guilt-based marketing at its worst?

http://chlorinesea.tumblr.com/post/15336366557/something-about-rockets-so-ive-been-called-a-white
http://chlorinesea.tumblr.com/post/15368276094/something-about-rockets-valbinisticvalbino-something
http://ardeb.tumblr.com/post/17144475360/alright-this-is-a-more-in-depth-post-about-the
http://clitt-tastic.tumblr.com/post/17116402049/reasons-why-i-say-fuck-all-of-you-that-are-boycotting
http://ardeb.tumblr.com/post/17145773881/tw-some-deets-on-riley-the-head-of-the-arkh-project

This is not the kind of PR you want as a videogame developer, much less one trying to make a positive impact in videogames-based multiculturalism. The motivation here seems more like revenge than equality.

>>146359
Maybe some people are tired of being treated like assholes because of the atrocities a bunch of dead idiots they're not related to committed.

Hey, how's this for a bright idea? Let's round up all the Germans alive today, put them in concentration camps, and systematically murder them for what the Nazis did 70 years ago! Hell, while we're at it, let's impale all the Romanians on 20 foot long pikes for what that scoundrel Vlad Tepes did! That'll teach those bastards!

>>146303
THought I was the only one. Cripes.

>>146360
One side has the system working in its favor while the other doesn't. Idealism sure is nice if you're not confronted with the shitty reality pretty much all the time.

I'm stopping this now. My arguments were pretty much entirely recycled from various tumblrs related to this thread and only partially represent my actual opinions. Thank you for playing.

Fun fact: At this point (if not earlier) people who contested the posts I made would have been attacked by multiple named posters and possibly banned had this conversation taken place on /baw/.

>>146365
>puppermaster defense

lol ok

>>146365
>My arguments were pretty much entirely recycled from various tumblrs
...So you can't even defend your viewpoint with your own arguments?
And "One side has the system working in its favor while the other doesn't" just goes right back to >>146354 in terms of making sweeping generalizations.

>>146365
>Idealism sure is nice if you're not confronted with the shitty reality pretty much all the time.

Yeah, it's much better to keep the cycle going.

Fuck ideals, fuck trying to be the better man, fuck live and let live, fuck little children one day living in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character!

My actual opinions:
I agree with the criticism regarding the project brought up in this thread.
I agree that statements that are worded as generalizations should not be used even if no generalization is intended; it is possible that some people may read them as intended, but the assumption that most people will do so is unrealistic since 1. people rarely say exactly what they mean in public and 2. a post on the internet is essentially directed at "anyone who isn't excluded".

I made the previous posts to gauge how political correctness is viewed on this board; I do not want to be banned for saying the "wrong" things. The second spoiler in >>146365 is something I did see happening.

>>146370
>I do not want to be banned for saying the "wrong" things. The second spoiler in >>146365 is something I did see happening.

Um, no.

People said that "reverse discrimination is still a form of discrimination."

They didn't say "DIS IS WHY U DON'T LET FAGS/NIGGERS/WYMIN ON TEH INTERNET".

THAT'S what gets people banned. In fact, it just happened recently on a couple of boards.

>>146372
About a year ago I got attacked (and threatened with a ban) on /baw/ for using the dictionary definition of racism (discrimination based on race) as opposed to the updated one (_systemic_ discrimination based on race). Some people take political correctness _very_ seriously.

>>146374
That seems like a HUGE overreaction.
Well, it does without any context into the actual conversation.

From what I've seen, people get called out or banned if they do something that's obviously racist/sexist/discriminatory (like that wife-beater who kept droning on about how there weren't enough women in cartoons getting brutalized.)

>>146370
>Social experiment
You just admitted that you aren't contributing anything to this conversation. Moving on now.

>>146352
Yeah, completely forgot about that the developers would invite cease and desist orders if they took in any money. Still, I feel that there's some comparison to be made about the development of the two, positive or negative.

>The video game the major companies refuse to give us!

This sounds like the rhetoric George Lucas has been using about why no one wanted to distribute Red Tails.

>>146375
I was just being careful. I already got banned from this board once (before I used a name and for a good reason unrelated to anything in this thread).

I'll shut up now unless I actually have something to contribute.

>>146376
Fighting is Magic is an example of a dedicated team of people with defined roles and skills working within their means to produce something.

The Arkh Project is an example of someone begging for donations to get other people to make their dream game.

>>146377
Oh fuck I watched the Half in the Bag on that earlier..George is so full of shit.

And this games tagline sounds like a similar statement and while I can't name scores of games that had a black or gay protag I can think of a few good ones that had at least the black female or at least minority PC. As for gay..I could swear I've played at least one over the years where that was the case (and not the Nazi H-Game stuff from Japan) though with RPGs having that as an option it makes things difficult when counting. And that is not counting the good games I've played with gay and or minority supporting characters that have been well written and not stereotypical (New Vegas always springing to mind with Ronnie and Arcade)

>Nazi H-Game stuff from Japan
Never expected to see a reference to Absolute Obedience..

>>146331
>"Let's make our game for gay people too, but not white gay people!"
Nigga wat.

>>146347
Wasn't Touhou originally made by one guy? Yes, ZUN, or Junya Ota. Dude has completely made all of those games. Hell, look how that shot off into everywhere on the internet.

>>146349
Pretty well actually. They made a test sample that you can download, though it's awfully buggy/doesn't always work. They've since gone over that though and are working to fix it, after they had an open discussion on what aspects need to be focused on before they attempt another test/alpha. Haven't been as much news from the story/setting content guys, but that's due to most focus being put on fixing code now to make it semi-playable to test.

>>146361
Oh hey, what happened to that?

>>146381
Pretty much.

HELP I'M MY SPECIFIC SOCIAL GROUP ISN'T BEING CATERED ENOUGH TO MATCH MY PERSONAL STANDARDS AND TASTES WHEN IT COMES TO VIDEO GAME PROTAGONISTS!

>>146399
Now now, there is under-representation of people of color (I hate saying PoCs, makes it sound like a virus) and homosexuals in video games.

But this is all sorts of the wrong way to go about it.

vide gams

You're all lying if you wouldn't play an RPG that let you play as an african, native american, chinaman and other minorities against THE MAN and his evil oppressive forces in the early 1700s!

Oh yes, another fine example of how having a "good" cause doesn't make you a good person.

>>146418
I read that as the 1970's.

I'd play an RPG starring the Village People!

>>146431
Wow, that even comes with the bonus of everyone being gay! Quick, send that concept to the Arkh team! They still need help defining their game!

building a character who's primary attribute is their sexual orientation or skin color rarely ends in something other than painfully bad and offensive.
I'm all for a little more diversity when appropriate, but this just screams of wanting something just because "there isn't enough" damned be the consequences or outcome.